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 A "Meta" Deck. What is wrong with it and why.

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cheesfactory
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PostSubject: A "Meta" Deck. What is wrong with it and why.   Mon Dec 31, 2012 6:46 pm

This thread won't be about me telling you how meta is bad and you should never play it. To the contrary, I would like to know what people consider wrong with it. It is a deck just like any other; only thing different about it is that people play it more often, and so it gets the name "meta".

People often say that the meta deck is over powered, or unbalanced. I have one question for that. So? No crap stuff is going to be over powered, unless there is only 1 viable deck(hi goats) the game will always have balance issues. EVERY game will always have balance issues. But balance does not mean you cannot win. Surprise decks can always jump out and grab a tournament. Especially in a game with such importance in the side deck. If you really think X deck is overpowered and cannot be beaten normally, analyze its weaknesses, what it will side to deal with those, and what you can do to beat all that. If you can run a deck that is unaffected by their side, and at the same time has its own strong side against X then you will win. If you can side something they don't expect(or even main) that shuts them down, you will win. All decks have a weakness, there are over 8000 cards in existence. If you can't find something to beat them then you just aren't looking hard enough. I guarantee it exists.

Well if an overpowered deck can be beaten, so what? It is so easy for them, they just run this broken combo and I have to spend all this time finding out how to beat them! No fair! I hear that one a lot too. It is also ridiculous, first there is no such thing as an "easy" deck(with a couple exceptions, maybe SixSam can be pretty autopilot. but apart from that?) If you think Dino Rabbits are easy, then try making your own deck and winning with it. What do I summon, laggia or dollka? that is only one of the rabbit difficulties. It really is hard. The amount of prediction you need to really be good at rabbits is pretty tough. You have to be able to say ok i have X,Y,and Z backrow. that will counter his ABC. Then I need dollka to counter blank monster that my backrow cant stop. Or maybe you need laggia? maybe its the extra spell youre worried about? The point is its not easy.

Wind-Ups are not easy. Once you memorize the loops, its better. But you still have to figure out when it is safe to loop. Because if you go off and he blocks it, youre pretty much dead. If you lose zenmaity, giga brilliant, utopia, papil, what have you. The deck can no longer loop and is dead. Going off with the wind-up otk is very very all-in. So you have to know when his backrow doesnt matter, when he wont drop gorz, etc etc. There is a lot of difficult in that.

Mermails are also difficult. Grave control for moulinglacia, when to snipe his backrow or monsters, when to drop megalo and go for the otk. These things are not the easiest. While i think mermails are easier than windups and rabbits, they arent easy decks.

If you think they are so easy, pick them up right now and beat me. I dare you. I personally feel the hate against meta is completely unfounded, a strong player with a deck he is good with will beat someone who isnt as good, but is playing meta, 8-9 times out of 10.

This is not to say that meta decks are bad; I am just saying that they are not as easy as everyone says, and the better player will win more often than not. Regardless of meta vs non-meta.
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PostSubject: Re: A "Meta" Deck. What is wrong with it and why.   Mon Dec 31, 2012 7:38 pm

Wheeeeeeeeeeeeee, finally another person who doesn't hate meta Very Happy

But another post on the difference between meta and nonmeta is a bit...let's just say, "over the top".

You can't convince people who don't want to be convinced @westborobaptistchurch
People who have a narrow perspective have a hard time accepting things that are outside of that perspective.

#fundamentalismhate #hatersgonnahate
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PostSubject: Re: A "Meta" Deck. What is wrong with it and why.   Mon Dec 31, 2012 7:50 pm

This is a good and well structured argument, but I still find myself with a dislike for them even with this argument. Its possible I simply have some sort of subconcious dissaproval of meta decks because I find most of them varying not at all or slightly and I hate unoriginality. Maybe Im just an asshole thats unopen to ideas that aren't mine. Meh. I see the point of your arguement and still have mah opinions.

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PostSubject: Re: A "Meta" Deck. What is wrong with it and why.   Tue Jan 01, 2013 1:26 am

This is a very long long post, but please, when you have time, please consider my points. And even before you read it, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR RESPECTING MY PERSPECTIVE ON THE ISSUE Very Happy

I don't think the format has anything to do with "meta" or "nonmeta". The argument people place on the difference between the decks is they don't realize the true problem in the game. Konami has kinda done something as to placing insurance cards that work half the time as you will understand as I explain further.

My opinion on the problem of the game/format at the time: Here goes nothing!

GOING FIRST.

Okay let's start out with the first facet of the my argument.

1. How do you normally "stop" people from gaining advantage? This category goes further as to even "help" the first turn player's advantage.
(mainly backrow)
-Traps (the original way they were intended to Very Happy hence the name "trap card")
-Quick-Play Spell Cards (Konami's way of trying to allow the turn player to activate a card "quickly" in response to cards without having to set them and then giving them a chance to set it and respond to another card if they wished to)
-Continuous Effects/Trigger Effects that stop your opponent (Konami's way of saying, hey, let's give players a way to try and limit the other person's capabilities for awhile and make them try and get rid of this card)

2. Konami introduces hand traps. (YAAAAAAAAAY I LOVE GETTING INSURANCE THAT WORKS HALF THE FRICKEN TIME)
WORST FORMAT EVER. REDMD @3, are you kidding me? Fastest fricken format ever. Enough of my ranting.
-Hand traps were intended to allow the second turn player from getting overwhelmed by the first turn player's advantage. Konami realizes the potential of going first. But whoa, how effective are these hand traps really? Why have they fallen out of favor after the first 2 months of the Sept 2012 format? Because the format isn't "that fast" any more like the previous format. Of course if you get them first turn like a Maxx-C or an Effect Veiler, you can hamper the first-turn player pretty bad. But chances of you drawing maxx-c or veiler and then adding on the probability that they are effective? And are you really going to main deck these hand traps? If everyone did, then, oh damn, so many dark worlds and other decks that dont care about hand traps will DOMINATE, let alone macro rabbit is damn good right now. D-fissure and Macro are some of the best cards right now. And then you factor in the probability of getting a hand trap vs an opponent blasphemous first-turn combo which he'll probably save. Summon rabbit, veiler? okay backrow, backrow, backrow, protect, hey -1 wassup.
(the second turn player also only gets 5 cards D: compared to the first turn player starting with 6 which limits effectiveness of hand traps. talkin about Maxx-C and Effect Veiler here (and Herald of Orange Light))

3. What can the first turn player do compared to the second-turn player?
Now this should be pretty easy to grasp.
Negatives:
-First turn player can't attack. I believe that is the only drawback of going first.

Positives:
-First turn player gets to set cards/play continuous/trigger effects to lock opponent.
-First turn player gets to avoid any backrow the opponent might have/continuous/trigger locks.
-First turn player gets one extra card to "start" and goes through deck faster (which i think is a positive as deck thinning is good as long as you don't deck out).

Why is Dark World such an AWESOME first match win. Because it facerolls all the hand-traps and just gains so much advantage while stopping your opponent at the same time. DDV, Mind Crush, EEV, Dragged Down. Oh my.
Why was Royal Oppression banned? Because first turn players can spam special summon the field, set protection, and then boom, oppression. Hampers the entire enemy for the entire game. Stop 5 special summons for 4000lp vs solemn judgment 4000 to negate one spell or trap or summon?
Why was Cold Wave banned? Oh man. So much advantage for monster effect based decks. Oh my oh my. (btw, Glad and synchro cat enthusiast Very Happy Cold Wave was A GODSEND.)

4. Why the format is so heavily based around advantage? And why does going first grant so much advantage? (don't even get me started on solitaire decks D: )

-Crazy First Turn General GOODNESS.
Windup ShockLock, devastating.
Dark World Super Hand Destruction Master of Game 1 Advantage Holy Shnap Advantage everywhere, devastating.
Dino/Macro Rabbit Laggia + spammed backrow, devastating.
AtlanteanMermails, Undine + Aoi first turn + ADVANTAGE = ultimate super unstoppable popping power, it's like popcorn from hell in your microwave.
Agents Super Strong VEEEEEEEENUS Gachi Gachi opening.
Evols (Sneakin this one in there hehehe) Najasho + econ or evo force + soooo much backrow (ask @twi) hehehe
Geargias kinda ewww, dont like them first turn. Set Geargiarmor, that deck is actually pretty slow, in my opinion a balanced deck, explosive at times, but not all the time.
Heroes TKRO first turn with a backrow? or unstoppable search power, and then SUPER POLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLY
Fire King WOAAAAAAAH DAT GARUNIX FIRST TURN OH MY.....I don't even know, garunix is pretty annoying. I gotta say.
Hell ima even put Madolche Stun in here. OH DANG THAT SUPER FLOATER WITH SO MUCH BACKROW.
Of course there are hella lotta decks that gain so much advantage first turn.
(And of course, if you open 6 vanillas in Dino-Rabbits you lost Very Happy luck is always a factor in the game. But we gotta place SOME kinda parameter so this debate can even be weighed)
OH YEA I FORGOT SIX SAMS. HELLA OPEN GATEWAY OF THE BROKENESS BRO. Dat Shi En up yo *** with backrow Very Happy #sixsampotofgreed
should I go so far as to going to Tier 2 and Tier 3 decks? If you want stuff like hieratics, the new TeleDad, GK Stun, T.G. stun, firedance or whatever they're called now, or ANYTHING that has been used on the competitive circuit, just ask, as this post is already HUMONGOUS.

Why Rock Stun did so well in OCG, C-C-C-C-COMBOBREAKER!

-How good backrow is compared to hand traps. Maxx-C and Effect Veiler vs Other StUfFs. hehehe
Nice veiler you got there, can it beat me SOLEMN WARNING THAT STOPS ALL YO COMBOS AND THEN NEXT TURN I CAN COMBO. naise -1 bro. Wait you chain Maxx-C? kay, i'll just stop there and set some backrow, now you can't get through this backrow and you wasted your maxx-c cuz i can combo next turn.
I KNOW KONAMI HAS TRIED TO BALANCE OUT THE BACKROW ISSUE WITH MST AT 3, NIGHT BEAM, HEAVY STORM, AND OTHER SPELL/TRAP DESTRUCTION. But really? You want MST AND A HAND TRAP? nice hand you got there. Can I see your monsters? Oh a magician? It's fine, I have two backrow. Blind MST ftw? Can you does?
HAND TRAPS DON'T GAIN ADVANTAGE.
-Veiler, -1 at the moment.
-Maxx-C, wait what? 0 or +1 but then, you gotta deal with the monsters and backrow on the board.
-Backrow, summon negation, BETTER THAN MAXX-C CUZ YOU GET RID OF THE PROBLEM, what cards did you get from maxx-c? oh okay don't use them next turn. HELLO SOLEMN BRIGADE. and other stuff too, how much intimidation are you against when you see 5 cards in your opponents hand vs 5 backrow? THERE YOU GO Very Happy fear is also a big factor in the game ya know...
-YAY FIRST TURN TKRO vs. Windups or Heros Very Happy hehehehehehehehe HAI enough said. Other continuous effects ftw. Not going in depth with each. Macro Cosmos first turn vs. AtlanteanMermail, DarkWorld, Inzektors, Hand-trap heavy decks (hey another downside to hand-traps Very Happy dead cards in hand wheeeee happy day)
-First turn Royal Decree is OMG TOO GOOD against backrow decks.

First turn advantage with almost no cards that can stop you is preeeeeetty damn amazing. Of course adding in Royal Oppression won't solve the problem, as it just gives first turn even more advantage (but I would love it of course Very Happy ).
Even Tier 2 decks and Tier 3 decks can gain so much advantage first turn. (Which is another argument that metahaters use is that they can win with nonmeta vs meta). Not because of meta or nonmeta, it's cuz of the advantage you can get.

Stare down 2-5 backrows and a Laggia/TKRO/Dolkka.
Stare down 2-4 backrows and ShockLock or 2-5 backrow and Rabbit (yay poke!)
Stare down GK stun which can be counted as "nonmeta" with no monsters in hand and 2-3 backrow is pretty sad.
There's a reason why Chaos Dragons aren't that great this format. Of course they're still okay, with a bunch of deck thinning, no backrow, s/t destruction, explosiveness, and of course the boss monster aspect. But they aren't fast enough any more and don't have something to fall back on. Macro Rabbit in my opinion is the best deck of the format, (eeeeevols wheeeeeee my favorite) because, man, do they have protection, they have the boss monster aspect, and they have holy crap intimidation.
Plus they get so much advantage Very Happy

And here's a litte "thing" I'd like to include here, why you should respect my opinion and an in-depth analysis on Geargias.
Excuses, excuses, excuses, we all have them. Triple mystlevainn REALLY, played HieraticDragunities while testing. Drew into preeeeetty crappy hands. You know, at least I went through all the backrow and other stuff game 1 and managed to make it close. second game was the triple mystlevainn. Docked on the criteria based off the duel. I know rulings like the back of my hand as long as the card is actually used and I know the text. If I read the card I can also interpret the rulings too. 5/5 on test too. So please, disregard my dorm when you're looking to how qualified I am.
Now, I've said this before in older posts when people try to ignore my arguments.
I'm qualified at making arguments, I take debate in school, I know how to structure arguments and I have a sense of logic. I'm flexible and open-minded. IF you make a valid point, of course, I can accept it. Now for experience in the game of yugioh. I've played competitively during Sept 2008 format, top 8'd three times during the four locals I attended with two original decks. Although I wasn't able to attend the regionals and I missed SJC Anaheim D: and I do regret it; I still believe I am qualified to give a response.
Now for the in-depth discussion of Geargias and why I believe they are tier 2 (surprise surprise!)
Geargias, what is their turn 1 play? Usually Geargiarmor set. Or Arsenal --> Armor. Then what? Oh, and that is if they go first. If they go second and they did that, oh...just underwhelming.
What is their turn 2/3 response? Usually Machina Fortress (which you can also drop first turn...) and Gear Gigant X and Geargiaccelerator spam.
What is their only fall back plan? ONLY GEARGIANO MKII or Monster Reborn. GET OWNED when you lose your monsters. Even worse than blowing your combo with
Windups.
Backrow? Decent. Just plain decent. Just normal backrows and stuff. Which can be good, can be bad.
Advantage? All special summons from the hand except Arsenal and Geargiano MKII, Machina Fortress is usually from hand, from grave is even more - .
Extra Deck Variation? No Rank 5 and Rank 3 Variation. It's hard to get those. If you're running the synchro version, yes, it's decent. But why did it win the YCS? Because, everyone overcompensated for Wind-Ups. And then afterwards, the next YCS, overcompensation for Geargias. The format is so volatile. Same as Inzektors. Adding a bit on "Inzektors" TIER TWO BRO, it was the super overcompensation yet again. I give him the utmost respect for pulling off an Inzektor YCS win.
Game two? three? Get sided on bro! Nobleman of Crossout, System Down, Chimeratech Fortress. TKRO.
Compared to other decks? Limited options, not so great prevention s/t lineup, explosive power isn't great, not so great advantage, first turn play weak (but not as bad as pure inzektors), and it's just not as great as other decks. Again, it's not the deck problem, I think they're balanced and good, the format just doesn't favor them. The players in the format just overcompensate for other decks. Before geargias won, almost no one ran chimeratech and system down. Most of the format wins because of overcompensation.

Well that's my 2 cents on the problem with the format.
And of course, there are many aspects to any game. You have luck + fear + skill + knowledge + deck matchup. The problem is on paper, going first is just too good. Factor in luck for each player, and I don't know if it really counts.


@chees, I think the main argument where people dislike meta decks is that, it is guaranteed that they "can" win if you make the right decisions. And then they follow up saying that meta decks are easy to make the right decisions. Like to counter your Laggia vs Dolkka and XYZ backrow, a metahater (lawl), a SMART hater, would make the argument that, it's easy to tell because I have forbidden lance, starlight road, and solemn judgment, I would go Dolkka instantly. And if I had solemn warning, fiendish chain, and compulse, I would go Laggia. Nonmeta users assume that in meta decks it is "easier" to make decisions that are already proven to win, whereas nonmeta decks take "skill" to make decisions that may not even win you the game.

Argument I see all the time against Wind-Ups, as I play that deck a lot:
ShockLock first turn wheeeeeeee, 2 card/3card super explosions. Don't blame the deck, blame the format. Don't like meta? Don't hate meta, go hate on Konami/the format. Why I topped with Anti-meta back in the day? Royal Oppression @3, Solemn Judgment @3, TKRO @3, and other stuff of course Very Happy Slow down format so hard. When I lost, it was usually game 2 where they open fricken Royal Decree/Cold Wave and spammed out a bunch of crap. (Dark Hole was banned at the time, maybe that's why D: )

So, if you think I'm qualified to make the argument, then please consider what I have said in this post. I hope you've taken the time to read the entire post as it contains a lot of details and different points and proof on what I think is the true problem of the game is. I don't have a solution to the problem I present. Please don't be ignorant;consider my thoughts. I believe they are valid.
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PostSubject: Re: A "Meta" Deck. What is wrong with it and why.   Tue Jan 01, 2013 2:04 am

read it all, jus sayin.

yep i agree... ive thought about the 1st turn problem before, as well. the easy answer is you dont get to draw if you go first(similar to MTG). then you dont get advantage from it. still have the benefit of combo off/backrow, but your opponent's first turn will have more material to deal with what you have. Not sure if it would fix it, but it would still definitely help.
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